Friday Feedback: Bonus Monday: When Advice -- or Feedback -- Contradicts

It may surprise (and confuse!) new writers when they get totally contradictory "advice" from readers as to what works and what doesn't. After all, if there isn't an objective truth to what works in our writing and what doesn't, how will we ever know where and when and how to revise?

The answer is a simple but terrifying one: 

Ultimately, we have to trust ourselves.

Having said that, for ME, writing a good book -- a good story -- takes a village. 

I want and need the advice of my trusted BETA readers, my agent, and, ultimately, if I'm lucky, my editor. 

I would be lost without it. But just because I get advice, doesn't mean I always take it. 

To be clear, I always listen to it. 

To be clear, I always listen to it. But I don't always take it. 

Does that make sense? 

Look, if I'm asking someone to read for me, than the simple fact is, their advice is worth LISTENING TO to me. I may not necessarily agree with their suggestion of how to fix something they don't like (and really don't love when people tell me how to fix something unless I specifically ask for that -- rather, I like to hear what their problem/issue is for them, then figure out how I should fix it myself in a way that is organic to the characters and story I've written. Unless I ask. And sometimes, I do ask.

But what if readers contradict one another? One says they love X character; the other says X character isn't working. One hates the opening and thinks the opening should start three chapters in. Another says the opening is their favorite part?

I mean, HELP!!!!

I do have a rule of thumb of sort about advice/feedback, and it's this: If one person I admire (this would include anyone I've enlisted or asked to read on my behalf -- otherwise I wouldn't have asked -- or my agent** or editor**) takes issue with something, I listen (as I said). I take the advice as "food for thought." BUT, if a second or third takes issue in the same place or with the same aspect of story, I know I need to revise. I assume I have not successfully accomplished with my writing, story or character building, what I thought or hoped I had accomplished. 

(Of course, if the one person who has issue with something is my agent or editor, I skip right to step two. Of course my agent or editor's advice carries more weight than a BETA reader's since they are professionals in the business and need to like my work because they are repping it or bringing it to market. But still. What if three BETA readers all love a character that my agent hates (why, yes, this has happened...). Or what if an aspect of story isn't working for a few BETA readers but my agent doesn't voice any concern over it? 

How do we parse through all this conflicting advice?

For sure, there is a hierarchy (with agent and editor coming first), but what must come first and last is the writer's own gut. If it's not working but I love it, I keep going back in. Asking the question: why doesn't he/she love this character or story aspect that I love? What do I think I'm doing successfully, that I'm not doing successfully yet? How can I read and see this more objectively (e.g. through their eyes).

Sometimes, pointed specific questions like that about a particular character or scene can be asked of a new reader, based on prior feedback. "My agent is struggling with this character I love. Might you tell me where the character works for you or doesn't?" That kind of thing. Fresh eyes go a long way in helping us to see what gets lost in our months of repeated revision and rereading. 

But in the end, it does, always, come back to us. I thought it might help to have some advice and  thoughts from a few other authors about how they deal with conflicting feedback and advice: 

From Amy Fellner Dominy (author of the forthcoming DIE FOR YOU, A MATTER OF HEART, AUDITION & SUBTRACTION and OyMG. . . and a picture book or three under contract. . . Amy will be hosting Friday Feedback this coming week!!!


Don't immediately rewrite and don't immediately discount the note.

• Give yourself some time. Don't immediately rewrite and don't immediately discount the note. Our first response to criticism can be emotional. Wait until you can objectively consider the suggestions and then act accordingly. 

• Get a second opinion. I'm in a critique group with two very talented, published authors and they will often have completely different notes on the same pages. If they both question the same thing then I know I have a problem. If they both love something, I know I've hit a chord. 

• If you get conflicting notes (or if you only have one reader), then I try to get to the heart of the comment. What is the actual problem my reader is having? For instance, I recently had a critique partner tell me a scene felt too unbelievable--could I take it out? Well, I could, but I went back in to the section and realized that I hadn't set the scene up very well. I hadn't laid the groundwork for the event that followed and so it felt wrong. Once I built up the moment before, the scene worked just fine and I left it in the book. 

Don't be afraid to ask for more clarity.

• Don't be afraid to ask for more clarity. Even when I'm working with my editor, I don't always agree with all the notes. If we discuss and she clarifies her thoughts, it always leads to a good solution--one that works for me and works for her. 

From Carole Estby Dagg author of award-winning middle grade historical novels THE YEAR WE WERE FAMOUS and SWEET HOME ALASKA):

I take all feedback seriously. I know even award-winning writers have completely re-written a better book after suggestions of their editors. I accept that I may have to revise 20 or a thousand times to get it right. I especially take seriously all comments that address my acknowledged weaknesses (not following up action with emotional reaction, not getting enough of what’s in my head onto the paper to make sense, and making senility-related word scrambles. I also give suggestions from my editor more weight than I do suggestions from a writing buddy. 

I especially take seriously all comments that address my acknowledged weaknesses. . .

 

But I know my characters and what I’m trying to say with the book better than anyone else. 

Even when I accept the suggestion, I solve it my own way. 

Even when I accept the suggestion, I solve it my own way. If you’re lucky, you’ll have an editor like mine, Nancy Paulsen. In shaping SWEET HOME ALASKA, for instance, she wrote that I needed another bonding scene between two of my characters, but left it to me to write the scene that felt right to me. At its best, writing is a constructive, collaborative process.

From writer pal Robin Reul, whose debut YA, MY KIND OF CRAZY (Booklist and AAP YA Read n’Rave pick ALA Midwinter), whose advice you will see echoes mine almost to a tee (I swear we didn't check or discuss first)! :

If two people voice the same concern, it’s now an identifiable problem. . .

If one person points out something that wasn’t working for them in my manuscript, I consider it. However, If two people voice the same concern, it’s now an identifiable problem, and I don’t think twice about making the change unless I have a strong reason not to. 

When I have two pieces of conflicting feedback, I consider if there may be other outside factors that might be influencing that reader’s feelings such as personal experiences, stylistic preferences or even their moral compass.

But when I have two pieces of conflicting feedback, I consider if there may be other outside factors that might be influencing that reader’s feelings such as personal experiences, stylistic preferences or even their moral compass. In the end, opinions are subjective and as unique as the reader they come from, so always consider your source. 

In the end the things I am never willing to compromise are character likability (unless intended), authenticity and development of plot and characters. Any point where a reader is getting snagged on those three key elements is always worth considering even if you may not agree with the feedback as a whole.

And, from Liza Weimer, author of HELLO? who hosted Friday Feedback just last week!

General comments:

Be specific on what you want them to read for. Plot? Character development? Copyediting?

Choose wisely and know for what purpose you want your crit partner, crit group, or beta readers to read your novel. Be specific on what you want them to read for. Plot? Character development? Copyediting? etc.

If two of more people point out an issue, PAY ATTENTION and definitely consider changing it! If only one person gives you feedback on that issue, you decide if it has merit.

If someone says their process is the only way to write a novel, ignore them!

If someone says their process is the only way to write a novel, ignore them! Everyone has their process. If it works for you, go with it!

Here are a few nightmare moments: 

1. I had an author tell me that under no circumstances could I include a flashback in the first 35 pages of my novel. Her editor friend told her it was taboo and an indication of poor writing. At first, her comment freaked me out. Then I dismissed it. My flashback was only a few paragraphs and was critical to my story. Needless to say, we didn’t exchange anything after chapter 1. What I learned: Don’t be afraid to push the limits and break rules. If you’re going to do so, do  so with purpose and do it WELL!

2. I had another author take my first chapter, which was written in first person, and send it back to me re-written in third person. She said my novel would be so much better if I wrote it in third person. Thankfully, this comment came AFTER my agent had told me how much he loved it. I never had her read another chapter.

3. A writer friend of mine told me a woman in her crit group argued with her over a character’s dress color. Why should it be blue? Maybe it should be green? The color of the dress had no significance. It was a minor detail, yet it ended up becoming a major discussion around the table and a major waste of time. Needless to say, she dropped out of that crit group.

My best advice:

Know the difference between constructive criticism and criticism. 

Know the difference between constructive criticism and criticism. Constructive criticism is about receiving sound advice: Comments should help improve your story, point out shortcomings, things that are missing or need flushing out and developing. The main goal of someone who gives you constructive criticism is to see you succeed. It elevates, instead of knocks you down. Constructive criticism isn’t meant to hurt or wound you, but to improve your writing. You don’t need to agree with every point, but the purpose of constructive criticism is to get you to think. Constructive criticism should be professional, (and sometimes humorous), objective, thoughtful, and clear. Those who give constructive criticism are not threatened by you. Their words should never be cruel or accusatory. They care enough to be honest, and they're not worried that if you succeed, it’ll mean they won’t.

A critical part of receiving constructive criticism: set that ego aside!!!!!! Be humble!

One of the hardest things I had to do with Hello? was remove one of the characters narrating the story. I had six, there are now five. My agent said six was too much and an editor said six was too much. Jordan needed to go! My initial reaction was to argue. But the most important thing I did was LISTEN to their reasons why. (Mainly, too much plot.) Always ask why if a reason isn’t given or it’s not clear and obvious. After listening to their perspectives, I had no doubt they were correct. Truthfully, their advice scared me. Each Hello?’ chapter belongs to a specific character and intertwine with the next. I ended everyone with either a phone call, text message, or a specific thought about the next character so that the reader would know who was next in the narration. Pulling a character meant I would have to reweave the story and do so seamlessly. At first, it was terrifying, daunting. But I did it! Victory!!!!! Not only was it the right thing to do, but I’m grateful for the advice. (Note: I kept Jordan in the story. But he’s now a strong secondary character.)

Here’s an example of how asking why and explaining why helped me decide to only take part of my agent’s advice. He told me that Emerson, one of the main characters in Hello?, shouldn’t come from a large family. (Emerson has four sisters.) My agent's argument was that having all those sisters in the novel was too much, adding complications and making it harder for readers to follow. I understood his points. But being an only boy with that many sisters had a profound impact on Emerson and influenced him deeply. After weighing the advice and my perspective, I decided the sisters needed to stay. But my agent was also right. The question was how to make it work. And that’s the point: writing it work. I needed to puzzle it out, but I succeeded and am thrilled with the results. 

***

So there you have it! A bunch of advice to try to help you muddle through that contradictory and, at times, overwhelming advice. Hope it helps! See you on Friday for a fun and light Friday Feedback! Cannot wait!

xox gae

Gae is the author of THE MEMORY OF THINGS coming September 6, 2016 from St. Martin's Press Griffin, as well as THE SUMMER OF LETTING GO and THE PULL OF GRAVITY. THE MEMORY OF THINGS has been named one of the most buzzworthy books of summer by YA Books Central and one of Barnes & Noble's most anticipated reads of the second half of 2106. Preorder your copy today! 

Teachers Write: So You Want to Join a Critique Group?

So you want to join a critique group?

Often, during the summers, as our #teacherswrite campers start really writing and developing story as well as seeing the benefit of getting and sharing constructive feedback with like-minded others, they start craving a critique group, and we here at Teachers Write like to help you to do that if you so desire.

In the past, we’ve had several of our campers find members of such critique groups through Teachers Write and many of those groups are still going strong, and if you are one of them, we would LOVE you to chime in in the comments about how you found yours, what has worked for you so far, and what adjustments, if any, you've had to make, etc.

But first, in order to help you if you've never been in one, let’s talk about how critique groups work, and then we invite you all in the comments to make any potential connections you might want to pursue.

What they are and how they work:

(Please note: The rest of the following information is taken, in large part, verbatim from KateMessner’s Teachers Write! blog post from last year unless in pink font, in which case it is me, chiming in! 

To see Kate’s full post in its entirety, please click on THIS LINK):

"A critique group is a small group of people (usually 2-6) who write and agree to read one another’s work from time to time and provide feedback with the purpose of helping one another improve. Critique groups can happen in person — if you live close to some other writers, you might agree to meet once a month at the local coffee shop for this — or online, in which case you’d exchange pages of writing via email or set up a system with folders in Yahoo Groups or something similar.

Critique groups can be made up of people who are at about the same level (beginners, folks revising first novels, etc.), people who write the same genre (YA, MG, picture books, nonfiction, etc.) or people who write different kinds of work but have an appreciation for what the others write, too." Perhaps, as you’ve been sharing feedback and other notes in the comments these past weeks, you feel yourself gravitating toward a particular person whose writing continually moves you or who you feel you share common writing goals with. Each time their name pops up you feel happy or excited to “see” them and wish you could write with them in real life. That could be just the critique partner for you! This is the time to reach out to them, if you haven’t done so already.

"Sometimes, critique groups operate on a schedule (each week, writers take turns sending maybe five pages for critique by the others) and sometimes they’re more informal (people share work when it’s done or when they need feedback, and others critique as they can. This is more common with experienced writers, I think, who tend to have deadlines and less predictable schedules.)

"Sometimes, it takes a while to find the right critique group. People sometimes post about forming new critique groups or about openings in established ones at the SCBWI site or on Verla Kay’s discussion boards for children’s writers. Sometimes, you express interest in this, and someone else has filled the spot already or seems to be a better fit for that particular group. Do not take this personally or read anything into it at all. It happens. It happened to me numerous times when I was looking for a critique group, and if it happens to you, it doesn’t mean that you’re not a good writer or a nice person or anything else. It only means that your “just-right” critique group is still out there.  And sometimes, people join a critique group and then realize it’s not a good fit, so they drift away. All of this is part of the process, and it’s okay.

"I’ve been in a bunch of critique groups over the years, all full of great people and talented writers. Some have been better fits than others. . .

"A few summers ago, I wrote a pretty detailed piece on how to critique a friend’swriting for the Stenhouse Summer Blogstitute. It uses one of my editor’s revision letters as a mentor text for how to critique someone’s writing in a way that’s constructive and rigorous without making that person feel sad or frustrated or so angry they want to shove their crummy manuscript up your nose.  You should read that here."

Feedback is an art, not a science. . . and rarely perfect.

Also, remember that feedback, whether mine on Friday Feedback or elsewhere, or your critique partners’ in a group, is rarely perfect. As for shortfalls to look out for with critique groups, this recent piece by Jane Friedman can be useful.

And remember, we all have our own voices and styles and just because something is working – or not working – for one person, doesn’t mean it should (or doesn’t need to) be changed. One of my own personal rules of thumb for receiving feedback is this (and remember, this presumes that whoever is critiquing for me is already someone whose opinion I appreciate and want and whose voice/style/writing or writing acumen I admire):

• ·      If one person takes issue with something, it is food for thought;

• ·      If two or more persons take issue with the same thing, it is something I should definitely go back and reread and see if I need to rewrap my head around it and/or rewrite.

(Unless of course the one person is my agent or editor, in which event I will always rewrap my head around it, even if I don't ultimately change it.)

Ask for what you need:

On the latter note -- and this is just ME, but raises another point – if a critiquer believes something isn’t working, I prefer that information alone, rather than the critiquer telling me how THEY think I should fix it, unless I specifically ask for that. I often find it makes me anxious and overwhelmed when critiquers start telling me how they would write my book vs. just sharing with me that a particular scene or storyline isn’t working and letting me grapple with the how of it for a while on my own. 

When you are in a critique group, you should each make clear what information you are looking for and how you best work with constructive criticism. Also, be as clear as possible what information you are seeking from the critiquer from the broad, “Does this story hold your interest?” to more specific questions about character or scene. Don’t expect your critiquers to know exactly what type of feedback you are hoping for unless you tell them first!

And if you are the one critiquing, please, please, please don’t forget to share something positive you love about their writing/story FIRST!

My friend Carole Estby Dagg, author of wonderful historical middle grade novels including THE YEAR WE WERE FAMOUS and the forthcoming SWEET HOME ALASKA, who has hosted a fabulous post on strong beginnings on Friday Feedback in the past, and I were chatting about critique groups and she offers this very helpful suggestion:

Click on the photo to open it larger on your screen.

I believe if we asked ten other writers, some of the most common refrains would be: be specific, set some group ground rules, and let others know what type of feedback you need!

Okay? Ready, Set, Go!

So, if you’d like to start a critique group where you live, or an online group, leave a comment here with the following information:

•   Your name

•   Where you are in your writing life: (beginner, long-time poet, working on 1st novel, agented nonfiction writer, etc.)

•   What you’re working on now or what you most want to write: (YA fantasy, MG mystery, picture book biographies, professional books, poetry, etc. Or you can say not sure – a little of everything.)

•   Where you live if you’re hoping for an in-person group, or just “Online” if you think connected via email will work out better.  Or share both if you’re open to either of those.

If you’re intrigued by all this, but you’re not the kind of person who likes to start things, then you can just hang out and see if anyone posts a request for critique partners in your city, or if anyone who shares your passion for memoir is looking to form a group. If you see a comment from someone you’d like to chat with about forming a group, then reply to it and figure out how you’d like to continue the conversation from here forward (email, Facebook, etc.) to work out details. 

Then I’d suggest you arrange to swap just a few pages of something for a sample critique, so that you can see how it works out and figure out if you’re compatible in this way.

Please don’t get stressed about this, okay? If no one answers your request right way, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad writer or that you smell like onions or anything else. We take things so personally as writers, don't we?! But sometimes it’s as simple as the fact that someone else is too intimidated, or simply missed your particular comment/request. If you don’t get any response here in the comments of this blog post, I’m also going to start a facebook thread and a twitter conversation under the hashtags #teacherswrite #critiquegroup

And remember: Critique groups have fits and starts, growing pains, and bumps in the road, so it may take a few tries before you connect with someone who is the right match. It’s worth it, though. You’ll get great feedback on your writing, you’ll learn a lot from critiquing your partners’ writing, and you’ll come away with some ideas that you can share in the classroom or library with kids who are trying to help one another improve their writing, too.

Ready to round up some critique partners?  Fire away in the comments!

Kate & Gae